Just been stung by road camera in Dulwich Village - Page 12

Ross83 wrote on Fri Nov 5, 2021 12:37pm:

Hi All, I got pinged on Dulwich Village, and our appeal has been rejected even though we had a mother and a child that were crossing the road to contend with as well, surely their well being should be paramount before processing the lack of sufficient signage. Looking at the news reports (

Read more...

...="https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/london-borough-ltn-cameras-catch-out-drivers/)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/london-borough-ltn-cameras-catch-out-drivers/) this seems to be a cash generator for Southwark council, having taken £2.5m, £1.5m of that - "In Dulwich Village, drivers have received 22,424 fines between January 11 and February 28 2021. 

I'm keen to hear from anyone that has taken this to the next level by appealing to the 'London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators? and what their experience has been?

WSSz wrote on Fri Nov 5, 2021 12:53pm:

Hi Ross

I have successfully appealed against a similar PCN having negotiated the roundabout from College Road travelling north. You would be very welcome to discuss off-line if I can be of help. Alternatively, Ryan93 is a fountain of much knowledge with regard to various appeals to London tribunals. I ha...

Read more...

...ve already posted my appeal and the London Tribunals response on the forum under WSSz. Consensus is that it all depends on the adjudicator that you get as to whether your appeal will be successful. Obviously you are risking doubling up the fine to the full amount.

Respond to this message or call me on (020) 8166 1679

Ross83 wrote on Fri Nov 5, 2021 12:37pm:

Hi All, I got pinged on Dulwich Village, and our appeal has been rejected even though we had a mother and a child that were crossing the road to contend with as well, surely their well being should be paramount before processing the lack of sufficient signage. Looking at the news reports (

Read more...

...="https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/london-borough-ltn-cameras-catch-out-drivers/)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/london-borough-ltn-cameras-catch-out-drivers/) this seems to be a cash generator for Southwark council, having taken £2.5m, £1.5m of that - "In Dulwich Village, drivers have received 22,424 fines between January 11 and February 28 2021. 

I'm keen to hear from anyone that has taken this to the next level by appealing to the 'London Tribunals Environment and Traffic Adjudicators? and what their experience has been?

pancakegirl2211 wrote on Sat Nov 6, 2021 5:00pm:

Oh please i would love to have a chat with you.  My husband got 2 (he needs to drive as part of his job as an Occupational Therapist but he thinks we should pay as he doesn't have the time/energy to appeal) but i am not going to give up as it is absolute daylight robbery and we don't have mo...

Read more...

...ney to throw.  I dont know why we failed at the last appeal process as we had read through hundreds of emails (including Ryan 93) to the point where i was almost overwhelmed with info not knowing where to start.    We are too scared to drive back to this area in case we get another fine. thanks for your help 

DeniseR wrote on Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:28pm:

Really sad to see that people are still being caught out!!  I still think this is a really tricky junction because of the DOUBLE bus gate - and fundamental ambiguity from both Gallery Road and College Road approaches (as at last time I surveyed the area - probably July). 

From College Road - there's no camera sign. The new red signs that were put up a few month back are better - but doesn't specify that there are TWO exits that you can't take during restricted hours....

Read more...

...

A Blue Bus Gate sign is now visible (obscured in tree foliage for most of the summer!!) on the A205 approaching Dulwich College from Forest Hill direction but not repeated. Instead there is a series of 3 Red signs with the 'restricted access' - but not making any reference to double bus gate ahead.  A car might not see the 2nd Blue Bus Gate Sign until they are about to enter Dulwich Village.

I raised this point in my appeal - which I ultimately won at the beginning of August. Note that Dulwich has incrementally tried to improve the signage - which suggests it was defective at the outset.

Excerpt from my appeal:

2.  Independent evidence of that sign is not clearly visible to motorists

There remains a fundamental ambiguity with the EA’s signage at this location. Drivers continue UNWITTINGLY to enter the restricted zone during prohibited hours. The Dulwich Village Roundabout is specifically mentioned in attached Sunday Times Article 23.05.21.

“Southwark, also in southeast London, levied £2.5 million in three months from two schemes and one, in Dulwich Village, generated 22,424 fines in seven weeks. Fines typically have a face value of £130 or half that if paid within 14 days.”

Based on those figures, that makes for an average of 3,203 fines a week at that stage! A screenshot of the amount of fines raised appears below. - Sunday Times ONLINE article 23.05.21

****

I had planned to write to Councillors and the Mayor of Southwark - because this junction is clearly a convenient moneyspinner - at a time when Councils are strapped for cash.

 I note from another forum that this Saturday 16 October, there will be a protest against the Dulwich LTNs, seemingly organised by OneDulwich group, who are opposing the introduction of the LTNs in Dulwich - and have been interacting with the Council.

Perhaps it is time to join forces and act collectively - as opposed to dealing on an individual basis.

NB I have no connection to either of these groups - but just see that this Dulwich Village Roundabout is really operating unfairly against drivers - who seem the be the easy targets these days.  Not sure whether there is a case for abuse of process - because it really requires an independent arbiter to assess whether the signage is sufficiently clear (vs Southwark's insistence that they are clear) and the restrictions understood by drivers in real time.  The number of alleged contraventions - suggests that the signage is inadequate in the context of that location. 

 Note that the route to the adjudication is protracted. It took up a lot of time - but I was not in a position to pay 2 fines. 

 www.onedulwich.uk and www.dulwichalliance.org

If anyone's minded to contact the Mayor and Ward Councillors, details are:

Mayor

[email protected]

Dulwich Village Ward Councillors

[email protected]

[email protected]

Apologies for any duplication - as I haven't had the time to go back and look at interim posts since July.

MaryS wrote on Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:22pm:

Thanks for your useful post, Denise. Yes, I got caught out four times in quick succession before Xmas, at the College Road approach, before I even knew about the restriction. I'm currently appealing to the Tribunal, on the basis that the signage is inadequate and confusing and that drivers have n...

Read more...

...o time to properly digest the info before exiting the roundabout. Went there to take some photos for my appeal and watched driver after driver unwittingly driving straight through. Couldn't bear it, and starting waving at people to warn them! I've emailed Barrie Hargrove today, and I think that's the way to go for anyone unhappy about this. Unfortunately, I assume that the Tribunal can only consider each individual case on it's merits. It doesn't have the power to instruct the Council what to do and, whilst the money keeps rolling in, Southwark won't worry about the handful that get overturned on appeal. The saddest thing is that the restrictions only seem to be adding to congestion and pollution in the area, not improving it!

DeniseR wrote on Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:31am:

Good luck. Shame people are still being caught out after all this time! Glad you will be lobbying the Mayor.

pancakegirl2211 wrote on Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:33pm:

yes got stung too 3x. appealled and as am not articulate to explain (went back took pictures, read loads, made some research etc etc etc)  we had to pay £130! absolute daylight robbery and disgusting.  I feel it is so unfair as i dont have the way with words that i still had to pay ( a...

Read more...

...s it is still the same mistake) whereas if you are ariticulate and have a different adjudicator they accept your appeal. it should be FAIR and that junction is . clearly an absolute scam to get the council money. i am fuming about the money it is making from decent hard working people. it is gross and i feel powerless