Just been stung by road camera in Dulwich Village - General Dulwich discussion - Dulwich forum in Greater London in the UK
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Just been stung by road camera in Dulwich Village - Page 2

ChrisBeynon

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:05pm

Posts: 12

3 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 15 Apr 2021

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:05pm

ChrisBeynon wrote on Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:51pm:

Yes, I too have been caught by this camera trap. Coming from the junction at College Road, there are no warnings of cameras on the road towards the roundabout where the camera is situated. Furthermore, at the time, the only (red) information sign did not give any specific indication of restrictio...

...ns. I notice that this has now been replaced with one that does. But there are still no warnings of cameras. I appealed, but after a delay of nearly two months, the council rejected it. Presumably, this gave them time to replace the sign, and concoct a bogus justification for the PCN. I paid the reduced (£65) fine in firm belief that there is no justice for motorists. But if someone is starting a petition against this unfair traffic trap, I will be one of the first to sign it. And then, everyone should be refunded. Life is hard enough at the moment, without these grifters making it worse.

I have sent the following to Southwark parking services:

This is to inform you that the reduced amount (£65) has been paid for the above PCN, in order to halt the process.

However, I still disagree with your assessment of the alleged traffic contravention, in that my opinion is that the signage was not sufficient to adequately warn motorists.Firstly, the red warning sign on College Road made no mention of time restrictions (I note that this has now conveniently been replaced with one that does).Secondly, there are no warnings of road traffic cameras on College Road before the actual cameras, only afterwards.Thirdly, it is not possible to safely read the exact details of the two signs on the roundabout, while also trying to observe traffic entering and exiting the roundabout.If you look on social media, you will note that my assessment is mirrored by other people, who have also been stung by this camera trap. Some of them may well take their cases further, and good luck to them. People are not made of money, and many are struggling to make ends meet. In these times of the Covid pandemic, the car is an essential tool for getting from A to B, whilst keeping safe.Is this an unfair trick by Southwark Council to extract money from motorists? I leave you with that thought.
happyrabbit

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51am

Posts: 12

10 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 2 Mar 2021

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51am

ChrisBeynon wrote on Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:59pm:

Hi happyrabbit, thanks for your support. Good luck with your appeal, and do let me know how you get on. I am tired of these councils always trying to screw us over. I never have any bother with national road cameras because there's always fair warning.

Best wishes

Chris

Hi Chris

I've just received from Southwark a letter cancelling the PCN and 'letting me off' with a warning notice.

Whilst I'm obviously pleased to not have to pay the charge it is disappointing that they do not acknowledge the poor signage or any issues around the lack of notification on the lead up to Dulwich Village.

Perhaps the answer is for us all to now to petition the council to deploy the appropriate notifications, either directly or through the local MP.

Best wishes

Andrew

Junior84

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:10am

Posts: 3

1 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 21 Apr 2021

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:10am

happyrabbit wrote on Mon Mar 8, 2021 4:06pm:

Hi, sorry to hear you got stung also. The crazy thing is that you don't even need to do a U turn, to get through the Village. Just turn left down Burbage Road, then right and right again into Pickwick and you are back in Dulwich Village.

Essentially, use more fuel (albeit negligible) and start to turn the neighbourhood roads into a rat run.....

...

Do appeal it, the online process is quick, and frankly everyone with a ticket for this camera should appeal it. The camera needs to be moved, the signage updated to inform road users that DV has restrictions.

I would suggest there is enough proof that the flow of traffic is simply moved into sideroads and actually increasing accident risks and hence  show that this camera is about money, not safety.


Hi guys I was hoping someone can help I received 8 contravention of 33a I have never seen this before and I drove through this road regularly to get to work, the car is leased and company has paid for this without doing any due diligence and mow gone to my account to ask me to pay for something I was not even aware off and I don’t remember seeing any contravention. Can someone pls tell me if I have a case here because I really can’t afford 8 PCN especially when I can’t see any road sign based on you guys comment. I just rang the council and he asked me to email them to explain. Did anyone appal go through? 

ChrisBeynon

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53am

Posts: 12

3 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 15 Apr 2021

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53am

happyrabbit wrote on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51am:

Hi Chris

I've just received from Southwark a letter cancelling the PCN and 'letting me off' with a warning notice.

Whilst I'm obviously pleased to not have to pay the charge it is disappointing that they do not acknowledge the poor signage or any issues around the lack of notification on the lead up to Dulwich Village.

Perhaps the answer is for us all to now to petition the council to deploy the appropriate notifications, either directly or through the local MP.

Best wishes

Andrew

Hi Andrew

I am willing to draft a letter to our local MP, Helen Hayes. I think it should describe the lack of proper signage, the fact that many of us have been caught by this trap, and the lack of an acknowledgment by Southwark Council that there is an issue on their part. The council should acknowledge this and put in place adequate signs. I would also say that all those who have paid the PCN should be refunded. In addition, it would help if as many 'victims' as possible could add their names to the letter.

Regards

Chris

Clare143

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:48am

Posts: 3

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 29 Apr 2021

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:48am

ChrisBeynon wrote on Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:53am:

Hi Andrew

I am willing to draft a letter to our local MP, Helen Hayes. I think it should describe the lack of proper signage, the fact that many of us have been caught by this trap, and the lack of an acknowledgment by Southwark Council that there is an issue on their part. The council should acknowledge t...

...his and put in place adequate signs. I would also say that all those who have paid the PCN should be refunded. In addition, it would help if as many 'victims' as possible could add their names to the letter.

Regards

Chris

I have also received a number of these recently from this location (young driver children on way to work) and would be pleased to join in any group action taken. 

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ChrisBeynon

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:17pm

Posts: 12

3 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 15 Apr 2021

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:17pm

Clare143 wrote on Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:48am:

I have also received a number of these recently from this location (young driver children on way to work) and would be pleased to join in any group action taken. 

I think that a letter to our MP would be a good idea, and I am willing to draft it. However, I firmly believe that it would be more effective if it was supported by a list of the names of people affected. The fact that so many people have been caught, some multiple times, supports our assertion that the signage is inadequate. In my opinion, it is an underhanded trick by Southwark Council to extract money from motorists.

Chris Beynon

ChrisBeynon

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01pm

Posts: 12

3 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 15 Apr 2021

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01pm

happyrabbit wrote on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51am:

Hi Chris

I've just received from Southwark a letter cancelling the PCN and 'letting me off' with a warning notice.

Whilst I'm obviously pleased to not have to pay the charge it is disappointing that they do not acknowledge the poor signage or any issues around the lack of notification on the lead up to Dulwich Village.

Perhaps the answer is for us all to now to petition the council to deploy the appropriate notifications, either directly or through the local MP.

Best wishes

Andrew

I have now written to the MP for Dulwich and West Norwood, the Rt Hon Helen Hayes, about the Dulwich Village road cameras. The text of my letter was as follows:

Dear Ms Hayes

I am one of a growing number of people who have been caught by a new traffic camera in Dulwich Village. Now, if there was adequate warning and signposting of the camera trap, I would have no complaint. But so many people have also been caught, and are saying the same thing, namely that the signage is inadequate. I initially challenged the PCN on this reasoning, but Southwark Council rejected it. I decided to pay the reduced fine, having little confidence in the appeal process. However, I looked on the Dulwich Forum website, and found that many other people were saying the same thing. Some, indeed, had received several PCNs, and were clearly distressed by the financial hardship. The route l took was going from College Road to Dulwich Village. The camera is on the roundabout just past the entrance to Dulwich Park.I wrote back to the council: "However, I still disagree with your assessment of the alleged traffic contravention, in that my opinion is that the signage was not sufficient to adequately warn motorists.Firstly, the red warning sign on College Road made no mention of time restrictions (I note that this has now conveniently been replaced with one that does).Secondly, there are no warnings of road traffic cameras on College Road before the actual cameras, only afterwards.Thirdly, it is not possible to safely read the exact details of the two signs on the roundabout, while also trying to observe traffic entering and exiting the roundabout."So far, I have received no reply from them. My objectives are the following:1) That Dulwich Council concede that the signage of the restrictions and of the road cameras is inadequate.2) That Dulwich Council remedy the situation described in the first point.3) That Dulwich Council cancel all the PCNs so far that fit the criteria of inadequate signage.4) That Dulwich Council refund all fines paid so far that fit the criteria of inadequate signage.I therefore ask if you would please take the matter up with Dulwich Council at your earliest convenience.
bluewaterukk

Posted: Tue May 4, 2021 10:24am

Posts: 1

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 4 May 2021

Posted: Tue May 4, 2021 10:24am

happyrabbit wrote on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:51am:

Hi Chris

I've just received from Southwark a letter cancelling the PCN and 'letting me off' with a warning notice.

Whilst I'm obviously pleased to not have to pay the charge it is disappointing that they do not acknowledge the poor signage or any issues around the lack of notification on the lead up to Dulwich Village.

Perhaps the answer is for us all to now to petition the council to deploy the appropriate notifications, either directly or through the local MP.

Best wishes

Andrew

Hi, can you share what you sent i am in a similar situation as yours. Thank you

Adam108

Posted: Wed May 5, 2021 10:01am

Posts: 20

7 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 5 May 2021

Posted: Wed May 5, 2021 10:01am

I am very happy to sign any petition or put my name to a representation to the council.

This situation is on the grey area of how councils generate revenue in cash strapped times.  ie  Making income  from those who dont know how to make representations, or dont have the time to, or can afford to just pay the fine.

I have had a previous completely similar situation with Lewisham Council ( driving through automatically a street that from one end was newly restricted).

To get free really expert legal advice google 'Fightback Forum Pepipoo' - there are barrister level traffic experts who give their advice for free and know the law inside out. There are many similar cases being discussed there and they know from experience just how to challenge in court/advance arguments/ 'make reps' as the legal jargon has it.

Adam108

Posted: Wed May 5, 2021 10:25am

Posts: 20

7 helpful points

Location: Dulwich

Joined: 5 May 2021

Posted: Wed May 5, 2021 10:25am

ChrisBeynon wrote on Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:51pm:

Yes, I too have been caught by this camera trap. Coming from the junction at College Road, there are no warnings of cameras on the road towards the roundabout where the camera is situated. Furthermore, at the time, the only (red) information sign did not give any specific indication of restrictio...

...ns. I notice that this has now been replaced with one that does. But there are still no warnings of cameras. I appealed, but after a delay of nearly two months, the council rejected it. Presumably, this gave them time to replace the sign, and concoct a bogus justification for the PCN. I paid the reduced (£65) fine in firm belief that there is no justice for motorists. But if someone is starting a petition against this unfair traffic trap, I will be one of the first to sign it. And then, everyone should be refunded. Life is hard enough at the moment, without these grifters making it worse.

Hi Chris

Am curious as to what the grounds are for rejecting or accepting an appeal - I wonder if it is time determined. ie that if you made your appeal right at the beginning of the process the Council was thinking they could still get away with the camera.

But when Happy Rabbit made the appeal ( which was granted) perhaps by then lots of objections had piled up and the Council were becoming more lenient?

In either case it would be good to know on what grounds one appeal was rejected - but another was accepted.

Though I do not from experience challenging these PCNs that the decision to let someone off or accept the appeal is 'discretionary' - ie that the decision maker is not bound by any legal argument to be fair and consistent.

This I learnt on a forum of experts (Google 'Pepipoo Fightback Forums') where traffic barristers who understand and will assist via comments for free the minutiae of every legal argument and precedent.

And one of the big mistakes I made ( when challenging Lewisham Council for a PCN where they had suddenly put up a badly signposted camera) was to take an outraged tone :) - and then posting the letter on the forum, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had shot myself in the foot .. because of the 'discretionary' power of the official that decides whether to let one off or not.

I suspect that Southwark Council will just carry on - taking money from those who dont have the know how or motiviation or time to challenge the PCN, or to whom the cost is not significant.

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Sentsy
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