Just been stung by road camera in Dulwich Village - Page 3

I encourage anyone caught by this camera to look at the following correspondence on the issue on the Traffic Forum:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=139271&st=0#entry1635448

Hi all, I just wondered if anybody has had any luck in appealing these PCNs? I have just received 5... yes FIVE separate PCNs from Bank Holiday Monday. We're not from Dulwich but used to visit the village a fair bit before lockdown so had no idea about new driving restrictions. We were visiting the Velodrome on Burbage Rd for the first time as my two young boys have just got their first bikes- long story short, we were struggling to find it and so ended up doing a couple of (very expensive) circuits of Dulwich Village.

I'm absolutely fuming about this but suspect there's little to be done. I have submitted an FOI request to Southwark Council though asking for details of how many PCNs have been issued since the scheme started, and how much revenue it had raised the Council. 

Thanks

Randi

Very sorry to hear of your being caught by this camera-I'm currently getting expert help on the pepipoo fight back traffic   forum ( see my previous post for link)

I am pretty sure that the traffic experts on that forum would assist you in challenging the PCNs – and it is obvious perhaps from your not seeing the restriction warning That the signage is still completely in adequate.

Do investigate further, and I'll report back here Any updates from the forum or my own pcn which I have challenged.

Thanks. I've also written to the local MP and will follow up with the relevant local Councillor in charge of transport.

There's clearly something wrong when so many are getting caught out.

The

The post below this line has been put on the Fightback Forum where real traffic experts/legal commentators will give a very useful opinion.

Regarding your 5 PCNs I think you might find some of this info helpful in your challenge

 * * * *

I have today photographed extensively all the signage around TWO restricted exits on the main Dulwich roundabout that has caused a lot of PCNs to be issued.

The photos are numbered and can be found in this dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/75ur3vyw0jspmbh/...FtPnvE-Uga?dl=0

The following commentary is my own layman's view of what possible defects are in the signage and therefore the validity of the PCNs

Observations on the signage to two new restrictions in Dulwich

Dulwich Village has two new part time restrictions which many PCNs issued to drivers who either misunderstood the signage and drove through the restrictions in the habit of driving there for years. The observations in this document are designed to accompany a set of photographs taken today 13th May 2021 which illustrate what signage is available on the two main approaches to the roundabout - one if from Gallery Rd and the other is from College Rd

PHOTOS: Gallery Rd Approach 1 - 2 - 3

1.1 Turning left or right into Gallery Rd there is a red sign visible with the Text:
" No Through Route ahead - Mon - Fri 8 -10am 3 - 6pm
Except buses taxis and cycles" - a little way further off is another sign which applies to lorry route restrictions. This could be confusing in itself.
[ There is already an inconsistency in the signage with College Rd which equivalent sign is placed much further down the road - see College Rd Photo 1 - 3

1.2 After travelling a very long way hundreds of yards you come finally to the sign in the second photograph. Restricted Access temporary sign on the ground and a repeat of the restriction with a no right turn sign. You might conclude from this that that that is where the restriction is ie no right turn and you might enter the roundabout expecting not to turn right. Looking ahead, the blue sign of the second restriction Photo Dulwich Village North Bound Restriction [ DVNR ] is just about visible but confusing because the colour is the same as the 2 normal blue traffic arrows. You therefore might not notice until you drove onto the round about the actual roundabout which if it was busy and cars were behind you, you might feel it dangerous to do anything but continue through the restriction.

PHOTOS: College Rd Approach 1 - 3

2.1 Entering College Rd from the traffic lights from any of three directions, the red sign equivalent to Gallery Rd " No Through Route ahead - Mon - Fri 8 -10am 3 - 6pm Except buses taxis and cycles" is placed much further down the road.


PHOTOS: College Rd Approach 4 - 5
3.1 The two photos show a progressive approach to the rounabout. There has been no indication for hundreds of yards except a single Restricted Access temporary sign and next to Edward Alleyn House a bare pole which suggests that the council has FAILED to put up an equivalent sign absolutely necessary to avert the motorist before a busy 4 way roundabout. In Gallery Rd there is this sign, but NOT in College Rd - also note as you approach the roundabout there is virtually no indication of WHERE the restrictions might be



PHOTOS: College Rd Approach 6 - 7

4.1 Once on the roundabout you cannot see the the Burbage Rd Restriction [BRB] until you are on the roundabout. The further ahead DVNR is just vaguely visibile but that is because the road is clear when the photograph was taken. If it was busy ( and extra traffic on the roundabout would have been created because fo the restrictions on TWO exits and people driving round trying to find an escape route, DVNR would most likely be obscured.

4.2 Looking around at College Rd photo 7 - you might then think that this was the restriction that you were supposed to avoid, and the driving round only notice the second restriction too late to take evasive action because other cars might be on you tail

* * * *

This entire situation could easily have been anticipated had PROPER signage been put in place - signage which warned the motorist well in advance that there were

TWO RESTRICTED exits on the 4 roundabout ahead

All PCNs should be cancelled and those paid refunded. 

Not here but when I got my dashcam I noticed that there was a difference between my dash speedo and the dashcam of 8-10 MPH. I ask the police who were visiting a place I was in in Wolverhampton. They said trust your dashcam NOT your speedo. If your dashcam is fitted with GPS (most are) your speed on there is within a half mile an hour accurate. Since then I have been through cameras loads of times using dashcam speed and not got flashed once. My satnav (Waze is free) on my mobile bleeps and shows the operational camera on the screen with a blue pulsating circle as I am on approach.

Hi Randi

Sorry to hear you are now also part of the 33e Dulwich Village club. I did challenge it and the PCN was reduced to 'warning' and no fine. I'm still unhappy about the warning, since it is a refusal of the council to acknowledge that the PCN was inaccurate.

However since I have not paid a fine, nor have I had to sign anything to accept the warning, the Council would be on shakey ground if they wanted to use the warning as a means to force me to pay another fine later.. That said, it would now be impossible for me to use the same argument to avoid another PCN for the same 33e notice in the same location.

My orginal posting / photos was on: Tue Mar 2, 2021 12:20pm, page 1 on this thread.

I challenged due to the simple fact that it was completely impossible for me to see the signs while sitting in the car as a driver, and that the lack of any warning signs meant there was no reason for a driver to look out for any additional signage.

I was coming from Burgage Road, which is then a left turn onto the roundabout. The line of sight as a driver and the nature of the road layout itself means that the signs are incorrectly placed if you come from the Burgage Road approach.

I also stipulated that I would continue on to court should the challenge fail, which was not an idle threat.

I hope this helps in your challenge.

Thanks for this extra information-when I went round photographing the various approaches (see my previous post for dropbox link of the photos) I did not take into account coming from Burbage Road and turning left.

I wonder whether The video of the security cameras would show the direction from which a car was travelling into the restricted passage?

Or whether there are now Warning signs on Burbage Road?

Perhaps this was the reason why you were let off 

I believe that the video will show car's approach.

My challenge to Southwark Council was very specific and detailed from the drivers position, which did clearly show it was impossible for me to see the signs. I also had a dashcam footage which would have proved, in addition to the councils video, that my approach was from Burgage Road.

This was why I was prepared to take it all the way to court, and likely why cancelled my PCN, instead of ending up losing and paying my costs. I'd of course prefered it not go to court since that would have been an additional waste of public money.

Imo PCN challenges only really succeed if they are unequivicable, signs out of specification such as height/size/obsured etc.

In my case it was proveable that I could not have seen the signs from the seated drivers position and I took an evidence based approach to support that. If it had got to court, I would have also provided a triangulated schematic in addition to the video/photos to show in evidence.

However for me this is a matter of first principles. If the goal was to reduce traffic, polution and increase safety then the restrictions are a complete failure and is easily demonstrable.

The failure of this particular design for traffic calming is that it actually forces cars down small side streets which have limited visibility bends and also have restricted widths. This actually increases the danger to both road users and pedestrians alike.

Additionally the extension to a journeys length and the resulting variable speed, stop and go, turn by turn, actually makes polution worse.

Whereas the main road was of course designed to take the traffic out of / through the neighbourhood and to achieve this in minimal time and with the minimal distance covered.

I therefore propose that the council has is essence acted against its original first principles and subsequently failed to provide any positive changes to the Dulwich Village environment. It has instead lowered the standard of living and decreased the safety of it's residents.

The waste of public money around this entire issue is also a manner that needs investigation.

I step down from my soap box now to make room for another :) “

This is massively helpful and so well argued thank you